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Brent: Without further ado. My good friend, Shane Parrish. Um, I'm so glad to have you, have you back here. Um, you know, when I think about people who I want to have on stage, you were, like, literally one of the first people I asked to, to be here, and you so graciously said yes. So just in general, thank you, uh, for being here.

And, uh, I want to dive right in. So, uh, you, you've, uh, when I think about non traditional careers and non traditional paths, like, you are, to me, [00:01:00] The most typical example of how you can not live a typical life and so maybe you could talk about just start off like at 14 You got a job in a very unusual way.

I don't think most 14 year olds would do that Why don't you go when you tell the story about how how did you get your first job? 

Shane: Does everybody remember their first job? I remember mine. So at 14, you're not allowed to be employed in Canada and I showed up At a store that I thought I could work at, and I said, Hey, are you hiring?

I think I was like, where's your resume? I was like, what's a resume? And he's like, yeah, we're not hiring. So I stayed and I volunteered all day by volunteered. I mean, he wasn't telling me what to do. I just sold things. Talked to all the customers, and then at the end of the day, he's like, We're locking up, get out of here.

And the next morning, he showed up to open the store and I was there. Did the exact same thing, two days in a row, full time, on a weekend. And by the end of the [00:02:00] day, he hired me. And under the table, because he couldn't actually pay me because it was illegal. And that's how I got my first job. 

Brent: So you continued this illicit and illegal behavior.

Shane: But I made it legal. So when I worked for the intelligence agency, I was allowed to break 

Brent: the law. You were allowed to break the law. Oh, I gotcha. So that's, that's, that's great. That's great. It's really just being fully you. Being your true self. 

Shane: It was a little bit mischievous. I mean, it was good. Yeah. 

Brent: All right.

So you, um, you get involved with the government, three letter agency. How did that happen? Like, how do you, how do you get into working with the government in that way? And like, the time I remember, um, it was wet and wild. Like, you were on the forefront of this whole new area of intelligence that really had never been pioneered before, and you were literally pioneering it.

So maybe take us back there. What was it? And then what did you learn? Like, what were some of the big takeaways that you learned? 

Shane: So, I'll go back to university [00:03:00] and go into how I went into the intelligence agency. So, in university, I wasn't one of those, those rich kids who had their parents pay for it. We didn't qualify for any loans or, and I wasn't smart enough to get any bursaries.

So, I had to pay for school as I was going through it. So, I was working full time. And this story will become relevant because it's actually how I got my job. First year physics is a really tough course. And everybody had a different assignment in first year physics. It was computer generated. This is like 1998 ish, 1999 ish.

And every question was different and all the variables were different. So there was like ten different versions of question one. And if you happen to have the same version of question one, As somebody else, you had different variables in it, so you couldn't just copy answers. And the way to submit your answers was to go online through Telnet and like put the answer in.

And when you got the answer right, you go to the next question. And so all the rich kids just hired a tutor who plugged it into their little Excel [00:04:00] spreadsheet, spat out the answers and got their answers. And I couldn't do this. And these assignments were hard. These were like 20 hours. And I'm working full time, so I can't do these assignments.

So, I'm in computer science, I write this little program, and I'm like, why don't we just guess from negative 100, 000 to positive 100, 000 in increments of 0. 1. So I run my little script, I go to bed, I wake up, I got 20. I was like, oh, this is amazing. So the whole year goes by. This is like October when I'm doing this, and then in March, the um, Instructor comes into the classroom, and he puts up like a PowerPoint, and on the x axis is your student number, and on the y axis is the number of attempts for a question.

So, there's like three to five for most people, and then there's like [00:05:00] 18 million. He's like, I would like to see this student after class. So I show up at his office, and I'm like, Hey, uh, you wanted to see me? He's like, yes. I'm giving you zero on all your assignments. And I was like, well, what, what do you mean you're giving me zero?

And he's like, You cheated. I was like, how did I cheat? And he's like, well, you didn't do the assignment. I was like, A, nobody does the assignment, I just can't afford the tutor who gives the answers out. Um, B, why don't you just take my exam marks instead of the assignment marks? So clearly I know the material, if I can go to the exam and do it, I just can't spend the time on the week to do it.

But I didn't cheat. There's no cheating. And he's like, he pulls up the webpage and The, uh, it says no computerized submissions. I was like, oh, that's interesting. When did you add that? Because it's not on the copy that I have at home. Because I made sure to read all the rules before I did this. And so he ends up giving me zero.

Long [00:06:00] story short, I didn't fight it. I was like, whatever. I fail first year physics. And he tells me that's just the way the world is. And so I was like, I don't know if I agree with that. Like, I didn't do anything wrong. I just took a different approach. I thought differently about it. And then I was thinking about a job, and I was contemplating going into banking.

My first co op term, I worked for a big bank in Canada, set up their internet banking. And this was like 1999. I don't think we encrypted Visa card numbers when we, like, transferred them. We had a co op student doing this, like, just to be clear. And so, I was like, you know, I really want to do something where I can use my brain and challenge myself.

And I want something where my way of thinking is valued. So I applied to the NSA equivalent of Canada, actually ended up working at NSA for a long time as well. Um, but I applied to the NSA equivalent of Canada and I was like, oh, I want to come in here [00:07:00] and do my thing. And. Yeah. We were starting a program that later became Tailored Access Operations, which is now the major center in NSA and most of the agencies around the world and it's computerized, uh, sort of access to information.

And I was like, this is exciting because now I can apply the exact same mindset to this and I can get rewarded for it and I can do it legally. Um, because, you know, our defense secretary says you can and And we do it above ground. And I was the, I was like the fifth employee in our group. And that group is now like 600 people.

And so we started this from the ground up. And then I started August 28th, 2001. And two weeks later, the world changed forever. And so what ended up happening there is I didn't leave the building until 2007. That was my first vacation. I went on vacation for three weeks. And I slept. And my wife at the time, she was like so excited, we went to Italy, and I [00:08:00] literally slept 16 hours a day.

And she's like, what's going on? And I'm like, I'm so burnt out because I've just been sprinting this whole time. And then fast forward to meeting you and you're asking all these detailed questions and I'm like, uh. How do I, we've developed this friendship, like how do I tell you now, will you trust me because I've kept something from you and I was like so nervous about telling you and I wasn't allowed a public profile, I wasn't allowed to have, um, any sort of public presence, that's changed now only in part because they're having so many recruiting problems at these agencies, but yeah, I 

Brent: remember, um, When we first met, the agency had grown a lot and with that your responsibilities had grown a lot, but also bureaucracy had crept up and this was again, I think there's a lot of people in this room who are in careers now who they're like, you know, maybe in consulting, maybe doing something and they're like, I don't think this is the thing I want to do.

I want to step out and maybe do something different, do my own thing, but like that transition's [00:09:00] scary. I, you know, I'm doing pretty well in my career. What advice do you have for them? And like, what caused you, what was the thing that nudged you into taking that leap? 

Shane: Well, it's interesting, right? So when I was starting the program, one of the original employees, that was like a startup.

Nobody knew what to do, how to do it. There was no. I don't want to say it while it's recording, but there wasn't a lot of oversight into the program. I mean, you were given a lot of freedom. That's probably a better way to say that. We get to make decisions, get to make operational decisions, get to make real time decisions, and we had a group of people, uh, and I think out of those five, almost all have left the organization and become incredibly successful in whatever they've done.

So, unique group of people, unique time. Place, circumstance, environment. As we matured, as that program got more and more attention for your bureaucracy, sort of like started to creep in. Hmm. And then it become less and less fun. Uh, and as that bureaucracy crept in 2007, [00:10:00] I changed jobs. 'cause I was like, I don't like this job anymore.

I don't wanna. I don't want to have to go for six levels of approval for something I used to approve before, um, with no oversight. Um, and so it felt like you couldn't trust me. And bureaucracy is something that the sediment, if you're not, it's like entropy, like it's always increasing. And so you actively have to work to decrease it in an organization and government is not the organization to actively work to decrease it.

And so it just creeps in and in and in, and then it eventually drives people away. And so the, I think the point where I realized, you know, it was a slow transition, the, the Farnham Street blog, the website, which was originally, 1440, or 68131 1440. blogger. com, which is the zip code for Berkshire Hathaway and the unit number.

That's an incredible branding. Well, cause I didn't want anybody to know about it, right? Because I wasn't allowed a public profile. It's an anonymous [00:11:00] website. It was just for me. And then it eventually got to the point where. Wall Street was reading it. People in the building were like printing out articles and giving them to me and being like you should read this.

And I was like, I wrote that.

And then I went to my security clearance renewal and I was like, Hey, I should probably disclose something to you. And just to put things in context, like These, these renewals, like, they have access to your bank accounts, your phone records, like, you basically open your life to that. And I was like, so I've been, I've been doing this anonymous website, it's not about work, it's about, and they were like, livid, they were like, what the hell, you can't do this without permission, and blah, blah, blah, they sent me a cease and desist.

Uh, and then I was like, Huh, that's a little interesting. Not what I thought was going to happen. And then, um, so that didn't drive me away, but it definitely put a wedge in there. And then I had a lawyer respond and my lawyer was basically like, so let me get this straight. You want [00:12:00] the headline on the New York times to be government shuts down website by employee, but decision making thinking and innovation.

Yeah, we welcome that. Sounds logical. Yeah, that was, um, And then they stopped that, and then my performance reviews went from exceptional 14 years in a row to average, and I was told that I wasn't going to get exceptional again. So there's all these little things, there's no one moment, and then they aggregate it into Bureaucracy, sort of the organization being slower and wanting to do something on my own, but not quite knowing what that was or how to figure it out.

And so you get to these moments where I'm 15 years in, I make a great living, I have a great salary, and I decide to leave. And I think the final straw was actually sort of like Phoenix, we had a pay system and some people weren't getting paid. And I thought we should write them checks as they walked out the [00:13:00] door.

And instead of them not being able to pay their mortgage, and the organization thought differently about that. And I was like, okay, this is like, I don't know, if you can't treat your people well, and they're giving you everything they have, I don't wanna, I don't wanna be a part of this going forward. So, I walked away from that.

I didn't know what I was going to do. I remember telling my mom, and my mom came over, I phoned her, and I was like, hey, I'm going to quit. I submitted my resignation. And she came over crying. She's like literally knocking on my door. She's like, don't do this. You're throwing away everything. Um, you have a great job.

You have a pension. And I was like, oh yeah, by the way, I'm cashing in my pension. And she's like, what, like, if you just wait till you're 55, like, you're still going to get an amazing pension. And I was like, I know. And like, financially, that makes the most sense. But I was talking to Morgan, you know, one of the reasons he paid off his house is because we were talking about this, same as you.

And I was like. That's the right financial decision, but [00:14:00] psychologically, I don't want a safety net. I, I, I have to burn the bridge. I have to know it's all on me. And she's like, what are you going to do? And I was like, I don't know yet, but I have the confidence that I'll figure it out. And I think that that's a weird way to think about confidence.

So when you think about leaving, most people think about The confidence to get to the end state that they want to get to. And I think about confidence very differently. And I sort of talk about this a little bit in the book, which is, I call it next step confidence. And I don't need the confidence to get to the outcome I want.

I need the confidence to take one step forward. toward that direction and have the confidence that once I've done that, I can take another step forward. And so, so often what happens is I think we look at the gap between where we are and where we want to be, and that delta is huge, and that causes paralysis, that causes us to stay in place.

And so what we have to do is shrink the gaps. And if you look at elite athletes who run marathons, [00:15:00] that's what they do. They're not thinking about the last mile. They're thinking about, can I make it around this corner? Oh, I made it around the corner. Can I make it to this light? I made it to the light. So they're shortening the gap between where they focus.

And I find that's a very effective way with confidence too. 

Brent: You know, it's interesting, I, I did an AMA this morning before this on, uh, on building permanent equity. And I, I, I joked, like I've said this publicly, like I feel like the Forrest Gump of private equity because like I never had a plan, like it was always just doing the next thing.

And I think people were like, no, no, but for real, like you had a plan though, right? And it's like, no, for real had no plan. And so it's interesting how things emerge right out of nowhere. I want to shift the focus to the book because I, um, I got so much value out of the book. And I don't say that because I'm your friend.

Like I say that because it, it, it honestly like one concept in the book actually changed my life this year. This year. Um, I've said this publicly, but, um, I remember you and I, we were doing a podcast and in anticipation of the book coming out at some point, I mean, the book was obviously already fully baked and written.

And [00:16:00] um, And so we were doing a podcast and I was complaining, I think it was early January of, of this year. And I was like, I was like, I really want to get in shape. I'm really trying or whatever, you know, I'm kind of struggling with like, you know, how much do I work out? How much I go to the gym? And you're like, why are you, what are you talking about?

Like you just work out every day. And I was like, every day? What? So, why don't you tell me, tell me what you told me then, and then I'll tell them what, what the 

Shane: effect has been. I told you my story about trying to work out three times a week, and not being successful with that, because you get this little voice in your head, and the negotiation is you're busy.

You'll do extra tomorrow, it's been a long day, you're tired. So I created a rule for myself that I would workout every day. And by workout, I mean I would sweat every day. Uh, I can change duration or scope, but I don't change the fact that I do exercise. And to that point, I'm headed to the airport right after this.

So when I get up this morning, I did my hotel workout, which is like 100 push ups, 100 sit ups, 100 squats. And that's all I get in for today, but I did it [00:17:00] today. And then I told you, I shared that story with you, and I'm happy to go into sort of the logic behind. Yeah, give him the logic behind it. Yeah, so I was with, uh, Daniel Kahneman, who's won a Nobel Prize.

He's the guy who did all the cognitive bias stuff. And I was at his penthouse in New York, just chatting with him, and his phone rings, he picks it up. And, you know, towards the end of the call, he's like, my rule is I don't say yes on the phone. And he hangs up. And I was like, whoa. What did you just say? And he's like, oh, you know, social situations, I tend to be a people pleaser.

I want to say yes to people. So I say yes to things that I don't want to do. And who in here says yes to things they don't want to do? Raise your hand. Yeah. Okay. So most of us. So what he did was like, he's like, so I created a rule. We've been taught our whole lives to follow rules. And he's like, I created a rule that I just never say yes on the spot and he's like the interesting thing with rules is you don't argue with your own rules.

It's not like you drive down the road in the morning and you're like that speed limit shouldn't be [00:18:00] 60. You know what the rule is. You just follow the rule. And so he's like we follow our own rules. Interestingly, other people don't push back on us when we have a rule. So if our rule is we don't eat dessert, people won't push back on it.

And so, I was like, Danny, what other rules do you have? This is like, I know you've studied cognitive biases and won a Nobel Prize, but like, honestly, this is the most important thing you've ever come up with. And he started laughing and he's like, I don't have any other rules. And I was like, Oh my God, we can do something with this.

Like this is crazy. And then that leads to our conversation. 

Brent: Yeah. So, so here I am early January and I'm, I'm struggling. Like I'm like, Oh, do I want to work out today? Do I not want to work out today? And I, you know, I kind of came into that, that, that, that conversation just vulnerable and frustrated. I'm like, you know, the same stuff I've been telling you all, just be vulnerable with people and people help you.

They send you shoes. They give you life changing advice. Um, and so I was like, yeah, I'm kind of frustrated. And, and you were like, well, you just gotta start working out every day. And then you explained, like, the logic behind it. And I was like, I don't think that makes a [00:19:00] lot of sense. Like that, huh, I'm gonna try that.

So I remember that next day, I was like, huh, I think I should work out today, because I'm gonna work out every day. And I remember I started working out, and it sucked. And then I worked out the next day and it still sucked. And then the third day I was like, Huh, I just work out now. And I just kept working out and literally have worked out every single day since early January.

And it's been life changing. For, for me, for my family, like, I, like, Yeah, it's been, it's been incredible. I mean, like, But it's, it's like these simple things. This is where, you know, Um, I think that in the investing world, sometimes like it's like, Oh, you have mental models and you know, people kind of like, um, you know, poo poo, like this whole idea of, uh, you know, mastering the best of what other people figured out, which is kind of your tagline.

And, uh, for me, like. It has been a wealth of knowledge and it's, it's really practically helpful. And so, um, let's actually dive in to maybe some of the principles like, like I want to pull out what you think maybe are the most powerful things that people can learn. We've got about 10 minutes left. [00:20:00] Let's try to go as hard as we can for the next 10 minutes on how can we help people in the audience with, with areas of thinking.

I know one of the things you said the first in your book is you have to know yourself. What do people need to know about themselves? Like don't everyone, doesn't everyone know themselves? 

Shane: So hold on, let's rewind here just for a second. So there's a couple of counterintuitive things in the book that I think are really valuable and undervalued when you hear about them, but make a lot of sense when you practice them.

And so one of the things is if you think of clear thinking and think of the book, there's sort of three aspects to it. There's the first aspect is positioning. The second aspect is managing. sort of the urges or temperament, if you want to call it that, that get other people in trouble, uh, that get yourself in trouble.

Situations where you're not likely to think. And the third aspect is thinking independently. And so these all relate to each other. And the first aspect being positioning is, I think this will resonate with everybody here, you know, Berkshire Hathaway has 150 billion on the balance sheet. [00:21:00] So, if the stock market goes up, they win.

If the stock market goes down, they win. If the stock market stays the same, they win. No matter what happens, they win. And I was like, this is really interesting. And this concept came to me with one of my kids who came home. And I'm an honorary Indian parent, so for those of you who are more tolerant of your kids not getting 100, I applaud you.

Uh, I'm very like, you gotta work, right? School is your job. You get homework, you gotta do it. Uh, I don't care if they get 100. I care about the effort. So he comes home, he gives me this exam. He's got like a 62 on his exam. And he does that teenager thing where he like shrugs his shoulders. He's like, I did my best.

And I'm like seething, right? I'm like, this is not your best. So I didn't say anything because I remember playing sports as a kid. And I'm like that car ride on the way home. That's where people quit. They don't quit on the field, they don't quit at the performance, they quit when their parents talk to them.

So I'm like, I gotta let this calm down for him and me. And then later on, I was like, [00:22:00] okay, walk me through what you just said. You said you did your best. Now this is going to sound weird, but like explain what doing your best means. He's like, well, I sat down at 10 o'clock. I read over all the questions. I knew which ones were worth the most points.

I focused my energy and attention there and I answered them to the best of my ability. I did my best. I was like, Interesting. You think about that the same way that we think about decision making. And he's like, what do you mean? And I'm like, let's rewind 96 hours. Did you study? No. Did you stay up late playing video games?

Yes. Did you get into a fight with your brother? Yes. Did you sleep well? No. Did you eat a healthy breakfast? No. Are all of these things within your control? Yes. Were you playing on easy mode or hard mode when you sat down to do the test? I was on hard mode because of my choices. So, in this case, he didn't prepare.

I think of positioning as we don't know the future. [00:23:00] We predict sort of multiple possible futures. And we don't optimize. If you have money in your bank account and real estate tanks, you can go out and buy real estate. You're positioned, no matter what happens in the environment, to be successful because you can adapt to what's happening.

The second aspect, sort of, of the book is how do we manage these urges that get people in trouble? The situations where we tend not to think, and a great example of that, uh, I know we're short on time, so like the Daniel Kahneman thing, which is in social situations, we tend to Do things that we want other people to like us because we're self preserving.

We've grown up thousands of years being part of a tribe wanting to fit in and not wanting to stick out. And so we end up saying we, we end up reacting without reasoning in these situations, and they're fairly predictable. And these are ordinary moments and ordinary moments. Compound into the position that you find yourself in.

And then thinking independently is sort of the last aspect. You can't really think independently if you're not positioned to think independently. And [00:24:00] that is so underrated for people because it's, if you think of all the great business stories, In history, the, the Carnegies, the Rockefellers buffet, you name them.

What they all did was they took advantage of a situation that caused other people to struggle for survival over and over and over again. And they were always in a position of strength. They didn't know a finance, they didn't predict a financial crisis was coming. But they were positioned because they knew financial crisis do come.

And if it does come, I want to take advantage of it. And I think that that is such an underrated element of how do we put ourselves in a good position. You can think of that as sleep. You can think of that as working out. You can think of that as investing in your relationship with your partner. Think about that for a second.

If you have a fight with your partner. Well, if you've invested in that relationship day after day, year after year, that fight is going to come and go. [00:25:00] And if you haven't invested in that relationship, that fight might be your last fight. It all depends on the position that you're in. Are you on easy mode or hard mode?

So 

Brent: what would you, so let's say that people in here are not all on easy mode right now. I think that's a pretty good, pretty good assumption. How do you know if you're on easy mode or hard mode? Like, how do you diagnose in yourself? 

Shane: Well, I think what's within your control. Am I doing the things that the best version of me wants to do?

Am, are my, You can think when you wake up in the morning, you've got a clear head. What would this most successful version of you Be due today that would put you in a good position for tomorrow. And you're going to end up with counterintuitive examples, right? You're going to end up with, I probably shouldn't stay up late drinking.

Probably should go to bed. Why? Because that makes managing the urges that get other people in trouble tomorrow a lot easier. It doesn't change the fact that you're going to get angry, you're going to have fights. You're going to end up in these social situations. It just changes your ability to [00:26:00] respond to them and makes it a lot easier to do the thing that you want to do instead of doing the thing that you're programmed to do.

How do you think, so, 

Brent: so a lot of people in this room are, are. Uh, stewarding a lot of resources, people, employees, how do you create an environment? Because that's one of the things you talk about in the book, is creating an environment that fosters independent thinking, that fosters healthy, positioning not only the individual but the organization appropriately.

Like, how do, what advice do you have for them? 

Shane: So think about what puts an organization in a good position. Your relationship with your employees is one. Is it transactional or is it sort of, uh, Uh, family with performance aspect to it. Are people going all in? Are they not going all in? How much cash do you leave on the balance sheet?

How much debt do you have? All of these things go into your position as a business, as an organization. How much time do you have to think? How much running around? You know, sort of like, are you the key bottleneck, which we talk about in the book for your ceiling of brute force, which I [00:27:00] loved. And I think all of these things, but the key is you just, if you start thinking of things in terms of positioning, you can always take a step today.

There's something every one of you can do to improve your position tomorrow. And it's not going to change the outcome. If I, if I save a dollar today, I'm not going to be able to retire tomorrow. But if I do that day after day and day after day and year after year, all of a sudden I get what I want. A lack of patience changes the outcome in a lot of cases.

You can take something today that's going to position you for tomorrow. Maybe it's not dividending all that money out of the company this year. Maybe it's leaving more money in the company. Maybe it's reducing staff in anticipation of a crisis that's coming up, even though that's hard because your loyalty is to people, but your loyalty is also to the company.

You have to wrestle with this. But if you think of it, what's going to give me the most likely optionality in the future to take advantage of a situation? Maybe it's doing those things in advance. Maybe it's hiring people. [00:28:00] And this is where it becomes unique. So a prescription isn't the answer, but thinking in the way of positioning, I mean, I can give you a hundred examples of positioning, but it's really like, in my situation, what makes the most sense?

For a lot of people in here who are driven, who are type A, who are workaholics, one of the things that you can do is really invest in your relationships. With your partner, with your kids, with your employees, with your customers. Those are things that we tend to take for granted, especially when we're busy.

And those are things that come back in an environment of constant change that end up biting us. I couldn't 

Brent: agree more. Um, that's, that was a big, uh, switch that, that flipped in my career was when I realized it's like, you know, relationships are everything. Um, maybe you could talk just in the, you know, last, last minute, minute and a half here that we have.

What advice do you have for people to increase the quality, uh, of their relationships and maybe even the quantity of their relationships? Like how do you, how do you think about relationships in your life and how do you think about what in relationships to invest in and how to invest in them now? Well, 

Shane: I think of [00:29:00] concentric circles, right?

So in your innermost circle, other people closest to you, and then you have to look at those people on occasion and be like. Is this the right crowd? Because you eventually become like the people you hang out with. If you're hanging out with your college buddy who's lazy and plays video games all night, eventually that's going to cause friction between you or pull you into that world.

And so you have to have your closest circle, the ones that you're the most vulnerable with, the ones that you're the most intimate with, the ones that you spend the most time with. Those are your most important relationships. And then there's a lot of people that you want to connect with, or maybe a lot of people that you're friends with, and then a lot of people you connect with, a lot of people you interact with.

And like, there's a difference between how these people impact you. If you told me something, uh, negative about me, It would impact me. I would take you seriously and it would have a profound impact on me. But when I get a random email from some dude on the internet who says the same thing, it has zero impact.

It could be the same comment, but it [00:30:00] has no impact on me because they're not close enough to me to let them in. So the people that you let in, you have to be vulnerable to, too. And this is a big lesson that I've learned in friendship, is I was always the guy you would call to bury the body. You need to bury a body, I'm there.

No questions asked, I'll help you. I can attest 

Brent: to that. There's been a lot of buried bodies. We said we 

Shane: wouldn't talk about that. We're not going to talk about that? Okay, sorry. But I was never the one to open up. I was never the one to be like, I need help. I was never the one to, to sort of struggle. Or admit my struggles, because I didn't want, I didn't want to burden my friends.

And it was only when I got divorced, unfortunately. Like a lot of these lessons are learned from, from, from, uh, From hindsight, for me, hopefully they're your foresight, um, when I got divorced, that I really opened up to friends about what happened, and the situation, how I was feeling, and it actually, it scared me because I felt like it was going to push my friends away.

And what it did was bring them a lot closer. [00:31:00] 

Brent: Man, I can't think about a better way to finish. So glad to be your friend. Thank you so much for being here. 

Shane: Thank you, man.

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