Recruiting While Busy | Derek Turner

Derek: Hey, everybody. I'm Derek from Chaparral Capital. It's kind of like shibboleth. I know if you're an Arizonan because you'll say Chaparral. And if you're not from Arizona, you probably won't.

My goal here is to just walk you through some things related to recruiting. I I only have about 20 minutes, and I'm hoping that 5 minutes for questions are also for you guys to share any tips or tricks that you have in the space. So, forgive me if this is a little bit rapid fire of tips and tricks because I'm really eager to get to questions and you guys sharing some ideas for yourself. So when you talk about recruiting, we're all really busy, and, a lot of us end up kind of doing the real version of recruiting, which is kinda like throw a job description up. If they kinda don't seem like psychos, good enough for now because you've got a 1,000 other things on your to do list.

So just hire the person who meets your baseline criteria, who answers the questions that you've just, like, thought of right when you sit down for the interview. They give you references, and you never call them. But you know what? You've got you gotta do other things. So that's kind of like the raise your hand if that has ever resembled anything you've seen, maybe.

Yeah. Okay. But then, and actually this book got a shout out earlier today on the main stage. You've got the ideal, and this book, who is actually quite a good book. I don't mean to to make it look bad, but, you know, it's it's perfect for when you're hiring, like, a GM or a president or somebody, you know, higher up.

But they'll tell you the authors will tell you that the best way to recruit is you sit down with a candidate. You walk through every major career decision they've made since high school, ask them why they'd made those decisions, what happened in each stage, And then, you know, when you get references, you drive all the way to where where the reference is. You sit down for 2 hours and you ask them everything that they know about the candidate. So I am of the conviction that that is great, especially for when you're doing a super high stakes hire, but it's unrealistic. And if you're not doing that, you don't have to then just jump to that.

There is a middle way. That's why we're talking about the 80 20 of recruiting, the Pareto principle, how do you get 80% of the value in hiring great people to your business for 20% of the time. So we'll walk through a couple of the kinda key portions of what's involved in that with basic tips and tricks that I think and that I've experienced have, you know, gotten me a lot of the value without becoming, like, a text the reason that I'm talking about this is well, first of all, I just love recruiting. As an extrovert, recruiting to me is like making friends. So why not just do it?

But more importantly, I was involved in a couple of founding teams of startups, one of which was a coding boot camp where I did a thou more than a 1000 interviews and selected 100 of people to do our programs, and, I've, owned a couple businesses and and recruited for them as well. So we'll talk about job descriptions and posting the job screening and interviewing and then references and making offers. On the job description side, the lens to use is that this is your advertisement. This is you selling yourself as an employer. We're gonna talk about how what at what point you become the one who's getting sold by the count by the candidate, where you are the one who's asking them questions and they're having to prove themselves to you.

The job description is not where you do this. This is purely in you selling yourself as an employer. A couple quick things on this is add personality to it. It's really tempting to go with the the boring, you know, we are looking for a qualified blah blah blah to to work with us at blah blah blah. If you add personality, you will jump out to the people who are scrolling through job descriptions and bored out of their minds with just simple things like, hey, are you tired of not using your degree for something that's really interesting?

Or do you feel like you're just a cog in the machine? I when I interview people for more of the blue collar jobs, what I hear again and again is that they were they've worked at Amazon, and they have literally felt like a number. So talk about what it means to not feel like a number in your job description. A nice hack for chat gpt, give it the bullet points of what that job entails, and it will create for you a couple paragraphs of really interesting job description pros. So because that, to me, is always the most draining part.

It's like, okay, I can tell you what the job is. I don't have to write a couple paragraphs making it sound snazzy. And don't skimp on providing details about benefits and such. Remember, these are candidates who are, like, making a huge life choice. Give them tons of information about what it's like to work, at your business.

Then you have to decide, once you have the job description, what your strategy is going to be. First, choosing offshore versus onshore. I could talk a lot about this because my life has been turned upside down in the last 3 months with fantastic offshore talent, but it's for now, I'll just say try to figure out, are you going onshore or offshore? I think that for most of us, what we think of as offshoreable is actually a shorter list than is is real. You can you can really offshore a lot of great stuff.

Then choosing whether to use a recruiter or in house. In my experience, I just use a recruiter if it's a super important hire. Otherwise, I just do it in house because the fees can be high. And then decide how you're gonna stay organized with applicant management. This could just be a spreadsheet.

It could be the Indeed, candidate tracker, but the point is that you can't rely on yourself to just remember when you have an exciting candidate. I think all of us tell ourselves that. You're, like, looking through resumes. You're, like, okay. I'm gonna remember that person's name.

And then, like, 5 later, you're, like, wait. There was somebody. He did something similar to this, and then you have to go through all them all over again. So have a system. Screening.

So screening is the act of very quickly getting rid of or, disincentivizing bad candidates and very quickly accelerating good candidates. So it starts with the application. Try to be what I would call quick but unusual. So again, when you're going to the application, this is only one step removed from the job description. They you haven't sold them fully, and you're not ready to start making them sell themselves too hard, but you wanna save your time, that's why we're talking about 80/20.

So the application should be quick and unusual. An example would be having a 1 or 2 sentence question that they have to answer that's, like, tell me about what job have you had that's most similar to this one? Or what part of this job are you lee do you feel like you have the least most experience doing? Make them have to show that they've read your job description and answer it, but don't treat this as a work sample or something where they have to work really hard to even submit an application. But this way, when you have a short but unusual application, you'll know who's taking it seriously and who's not so you can quickly get those people out of your pipeline.

Next, when you're looking at resumes, some people, like, I when my the first business I bought, their, like, big secret to recruiting was that, like, they would just get rid of any resume with a typo. And, like, that that was, like, how they just how how they, like, separated the wheat from the chaff. That's fine, I guess. But really, what I think when I look at resumes is duration at jobs. I just I end up killing 80% of resumes because there's too much job hopping.

It might be an unfair thing to do, but it's the fastest way for me to get to really high quality candidates. And then the other benefit of a resume review is when you find a candidate who maybe worked for a competitor, or has some other experience that's really unusual. The point of the resume review is to find those people and then just fast track them. Just call them right away and start getting them in in the door to interview them if they're really special. Then phone screens are critical.

You could spend if you were to give, like, half a half an hour for phone screens have you ever, like, made this mistake? Like, you start giving all these, like, semi promising candidates half hour phone calls with you, and then your whole schedule disappears? Just do 15 minutes, use Calendly, and use those 15 minutes for the sell, be sell be sold, sell approach. So the first 5 minutes, you're selling yourself as the employer. You're talking about the job.

The second 5 minutes is you asking questions like in a typical interview, and the final 5 minutes is them asking you questions so that you can, again, sell it yourself. Keeping it tight at 15 minutes and setting that expectation means that if they're great, you can extend it to half an hour. If they're terrible, you already told them it's only 15 minutes, and you're moving on. Alright. So then they actually come in.

You decide based on their resume, based on their screening, you know, are these are these quality candidates? Couple things. First, choose your questions ahead of time. Don't just show up to the interview and think, okay. What what could I ask?

What's interesting? What what was the last interview question that I got? Think of your questions ahead of time. I'll be talking about how you can choose them, but just have them ready to go. This is valuable because then you spend your time on the questions that matter, and you can then compare candidates across interviews in a standardized way instead of having 5 radically different conversations with candidates, and then you're not able to actually compare them.

The second thing is to set an expectation for interruptions. An interview does not take too long, and it's super high stakes for you as the employer. You have to get some really key questions answered. So what I always do with interviews is at the beginning of the interview, I say, alright. We have half an hour.

We have 45 minutes, whatever it is. I'm really eager to get to know you, and I have a bunch of questions that I wanna ask you. And so I just like to kind of ask your permission and forgiveness ahead of time that when I ask you a question, you start answering it. Once I've heard what I need to hear, I'm gonna interrupt you because I'm really eager to get to the next question, and I really wanna get to know you. That way, you don't end up with, like, a 15 minute story that, like, eats up half of the interview.

Instead, you ask a question, they start to answer, and you can interrupt them without them thinking, like, woah, is this interview not going well? Or do they not like me? 3rd, follow-up. Always go one layer deeper, so they're answering a question. Don't just leave their like, you should never have their first answer be the only answer you get to that question.

Ask a follow-up question. Get past the rehearsed answer. Get past what they might have as their boilerplate and dive into it deeper. And then 4th, read into the intangibles. Don't interview them if they're a minute late to the interview.

If they are annoying to set up the interview with, if they're bad at emailing you back and forth, if it's if it if that's cumbersome, that that tells you something. If they don't say thank you or send you an email afterwards, that tells you something. I'm not saying that these are necessarily deal breakers, but treat the interview experience, not just the conversation during the interview, as meaningful data points about candidates. Alright. A couple, types of questions that are relevant, again, think of these ahead of the interview.

First, our values focus questions. In the first business that I bought, we had a stated value of being fearless. What that looked like was that in every interview, we would ask them what is the most intimidating or scary professional endeavor that you've ever attempted? That would help us understand, are is this person fearless? What that didn't sound like is we have a value of being fearless.

Tell me about when you've been fearless. Because it becomes, that that becomes them just trying to, like, get at that one value instead of them maybe not really realizing that you're getting at the fearless value. 2nd are behavioral and situational questions. I think we all know about these. Tell me about a time when x y z happened.

The key with this is do not let them get theoretical. If you ask them, tell me about a time when you've worked somebody who is an underperformer, don't say, oh, well, when I'm working with underperformers, I try to coach them blah blah blah. You say, no, actually, can you let's use the first name. Think of think of an underperforming you've worked with. Okay?

What's their name? What's their first name? Other name is Carl. Okay. Tell me about Carl.

And then what then you can actually have them walk you through how they dealt with Carl, and they're kinda constrained by the reality of that example, and it gets you past the kind of generic interview talk and into specifically how do they deal with that situation. 3rd are skill based questions. I think I might have skipped an element in the screening thing of having, a work sample. Those are super valuable and save you a ton of time because you could have the candidate, once they're interested in the role, spend half an hour on something, and you can spend 2 minutes reviewing it, and you've gotten a really good sense of the candidate. But you can also ask skill based questions.

So my favorite example of this is if it's a role that would be using Excel, I just ask them what's your favorite function in Excel. If they don't know what they're doing on, Excel, they'll be, like, well, I really like how you can add numbers up. And they'll and they'll that'll be their answer. They'll be, like, yeah, you know, I've I've used Excel a lot, and then when you ask them that question, it's I love the sum function. But if they talk about pivot tables and and index matching, whatever, you you aren't necessarily getting the guarantee of a super effective Excel user, but nobody who's not at least quite familiar with Excel is going to talk about index match.

And then finally, reference surfacing questions. So this is related to the follow ups. But if you're if they're talking about this great big project they did at a previous job, instead of just asking about the project, ask, oh, who was your manager for that? Who did you work most closely with? Get their names so that you can then figure out when you're asking them for references later.

You can say, hey. You mentioned, Cindy, who you was your manager during that project. Is it possible for me to talk to her? And that way, you can then have a lot more targeted referrals. It's not just whoever they think you should talk to.

You can actually tie in the stories they're telling you into actual references to use. And then the applicant asking you questions can be a really important data point as well. So their questions tell you about their mindset. If you're ask if you're interviewing blue collar folks, if they're asking you when payday is, or how much is how much does this pay again, that's a red flag. You don't you know, you want somebody who to be money motivated, but clear not clearly in financial distress, because that can cause all kinds of issues.

So their questions tell you something. And then, if you wanna go one layer deeper and really do a Jedi mind trick, you can ask them, you know, why did you tell me about why you asked me that question. And then that can help reveal, okay, why how are they thinking about this job? What what is going through their mind? So that you can really understand how their brain might be working and how seriously they're taking the role.

Reference checks, I think, are the, least used but highest impact element of recruiting. If there's one thing that you guys take away from this talk, it's to actually do reference checks, even for basic entry level or blue collar work. They are they are a really effective way to to to do recruiting. They shouldn't be just, like, okay. You're definitely giving the offer, and you're just gonna, like, call the reference to make sure they're not completely psychopathic.

They should be that you're kind of, like, okay, I can see why this this person is probably the best candidate, but I'm not gonna give them the offer until this reference these references push me over the edge. That should be your mentality. It's not perfunctory. It's not just checking the box. This is a meaningful final step in your decision.

Try to get at least 3. Ask the applicants what their reference will say about them, so that you can get a little bit of a preview. And, one element that's really important, is listening for dogs that don't bark when you make these reference calls. So before you call any of the references, if you're hiring a salesperson, for example, think to yourself, what would an a player sales rep, what would a reference for an a player sales rep say about them? And list those things out.

You know, you they really should be organized. They should be, really, aggressive. They should be focused on their number, whatever. List those things out, and so then when you're talking to the references, you know, you don't get caught up in what they are telling you. You can think, proactively about what they aren't telling you.

Now you can you don't wanna take this too far where it's like if they don't mention a specific thing, you're not gonna give the offer. But this should tell you a lot that if if there is if you're talking to 3 references and there are 4 things that you expect to hear from those references and 2 of them are missing across all three of those calls, you've got a dog that's not barking, and that's a real problem. Because reference calls are inherently difficult, because people only wanna say positive things. Nobody, unless it's a super toxic situation, is going to get on the phone with a stranger you be like, oh, yeah. That guy sucked.

Like, he'd, like, don't hire him. It was the biggest mistake of my career to hire him. You need to be listening for where where they are less enthusiastic, not for where they are criticizing or or saying negative things. A couple of small things on this is what I do, you know, I I the reference rarely rarely picks up when I call them. I'll email them, and I'll leave a voicemail, and I'll say something to the effect of, hey, I'm calling about Spencer.

If you can if you can highly recommend him, please call me back. Otherwise, don't bother. Not not it sounds better than that. But basically, you you tell them you tell them that kind of they can take the easy way out of not calling you, and you can read into that as, like I don't know. If you have a friend or if you have a former colleague who who's who's having you called as a reference, if they're anything like, if they're good to great or beyond, you're gonna call back.

Like, you it's like you have this obligation to your to your former colleague to do that. But if they're crappy, you know, you don't really wanna go and get get on the phone with a stranger and lie to them. And so give them the out. Give the reference an out and and read into it somewhat. I wouldn't call it a deal breaker, but it means a lot when you call a reference and you email them and leave a voicemail and they don't call you back, especially when the content of your message is only call me if you can if you can highly recommend them.

And then finally, always calibrate the reference call. Ask them how many sales reps have you managed over the last 10 years. If they're giving you a reference on somebody who is in a role that they've only ever seen 2 people in that role, that reference calls a lot less valuable than somebody who's had 20 people in that role, and they can stack rank them and compare them to to 18 other people or 19 other people. Finally, giving the offer. Make it a big deal that sometimes after a huge recruiting process or you're you're exhausted after getting all this done, it's like the offer is this afterthought of like, okay, great.

Hey. You got the job. Great to have you. You can start next week. Instead, treat it like a really big deal.

These people are this is their life. They're making a huge decision. Have some pomp and circumstance. Treat it as something that they've worked really hard for. Share specific compliments.

Hey. When you told me that story about working for Cindy and and getting that thing across the finish line, that's exactly the kind of stuff that we're looking for in our business, and we're really excited to have you. Send a detailed formal offer after a verbal acceptance so that doesn't get used to shop around, and then finally, be really clear about the next steps. Here's your offer. We're really excited to have you.

Your first day is in 2 weeks on this date, but we're gonna be in touch with you 5 days before to talk about technology. Give them a really clear path to where that conversation is to when they're starting. Like I said, this was a fast walkthrough of 80 20 recruiting. Feel free to fill out the form at this QR code, and I'll send you there's some articles and books that that inform this presentation. I'll I'll send you the slides and a couple other things, so just fill out that form, and I'll get them to you after the conference.

Any questions? I think we have how many minutes? One minute. We have we have 2 or 1 minute. I'm I'm getting conflicting.

Any comments, like, tips or tricks that stand out to you or any questions? Yes. So what I would do, and I'm not I haven't been the best at this, but I I try to is before they start, put a 30 day, a 60 day, and a 90 day check-in on the calendar so that you have a reason to sit with them at those junctures where you can say, hey. These things seem to be kind of an issue, and you have a natural way to basically coach them out instead of it being, like, oh, let me grab a meeting with this new hire, and they're gonna be freaked out, and it gets a lot more uncomfortable. So, it gets uncomfortable, and that's and that's why it's nice because it it's it's going to break your natural rhythm of conversation, and that's why you need the permission upfront.

So they give me in the middle of a story and be, like, hey. Hey, Dave. That's awesome. You know what? I got exactly what I needed from that question.

I know there's probably a lot more we can talk about, but we're so time constrained that I'd really like to move on. Is that okay? And just, like, it's gonna feel awkward, especially the first time it happens, but you've got to treasure the minutes you have with that candidate more than you care about being, like, the typical level of politeness that you would otherwise have. So, typically, what I would this is a question about how to basically compare. How do you make a group decision in a, you know, remotely quantitative way?

I'm a big fan of score sheets. So you have, you know, you've got your 5 values, and then you've got the, like, 5 critical things you're looking for in this role. All 4 employees of yours who are doing the interviews have the same score sheet as this 1 to 5 or whatever the the thing is, and then each person and and you make it clear, you cannot share your your scores with any of your your colleagues until we come together. They, through through whatever questions they're asking, if if you're all sharing the room or if you're doing separate interviews, you have the same score sheet that is tied to values and tied to the pre, predecided most important qualities that you're looking for. And that way, you can have especially because you're doing multiple interviews, you can then make it a an approximation of a quantitative process that's never perfect, but at least gets away from the, like, the weird group think of, like, oh, did you did you like them?

Like, was it 2 thumbs up or 1 thumbs up? You wanna, like, get down to numbers if you can. Alright. Thanks a lot, guys.

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